Boilers 101 with Camus Hydronics

Don’t be confused by the rapidly advancing state of commercial boilers. Podcast guests Brad Carll (Camus) and Jeff Henderson (Midwest Machinery) give us a great introduction to the technology, when and how to use it, and what to look forward to in the near future.

Here’s a copy of the full show transcript:

Announcer:

Broadcasting around the world, this is Engineering Tomorrow, the podcast committed to bringing you the best in commercial construction, design, and engineering from the brightest minds in the industry. This is the stuff they don’t teach you in school, so sit back. Relax and open your mind. You’re about to get the insider knowledge to improve your next construction project, or advance your career. This is Engineering Tomorrow.

Brian Gomski:

Hey everybody, welcome to Engineering Tomorrow. As always, and every week, I’m your host, Brian Gomski. Today we have two very special guests. First we have Brad Carl, who is famous in the commercial boiler world, with Camus, and then we have Jeff Henderson.

Jeff Henderson:

Hello, hello.

Brian Gomski:

Who is the St. Louis Sales Manager and industry veteran in commercial HVAC, and we are here today to talk about boilers, specifically Boilers 101, what is a boiler, types of boilers, boiler loops. By the end of this episode, you will be armed with everything you need to know about getting your feet wet with commercial boilers.

Brian Gomski:

Gentlemen, welcome for being here today. Thank you.

Jeff Henderson:

Thank you.

Brad Carl:

Thank you. Thanks for having me. I don’t know how famous I am. I’m notorious in my own mind.

Brian Gomski:

Within the boiler industry, you’re very famous, trust us. Brad, give us just a real quick rundown on who you are, and your expertise with boilers, and then we’ll just jump straight into Boilers 101.

Brad Carl:

Yeah, Brad Carl, I’m the Regional Sales Manager for Camus Hydronics. A little bit about my background, I started in the industry selling boilers, moved on from that to work for a contractor. Decided that wanted to go onto the manufacturing side, so about 12 years of experience in boilers, on all sides of the industry.

Brian Gomski:

Okay, cool. Just starting out, since this is Boilers 101, what is a boiler?

Brad Carl:

Yeah a boiler, it’s made for heating water, whether it’s water or steam, and in regards to our product line it would be water, but used for, whether it’s a process or a heating application.

Brian Gomski:

Okay, so we got a big machine that heats water. What is its, for Camus’ purposes, what’s its heating medium?

Brad Carl:

Primarily we use water. It also can be glycol. We have glycol systems, especially where we have extreme low temperatures. There’s a lot up north where I’m from. I’m in Minnesota. I’d say that there’s a good mix of both water medium and glycol medium.

Brian Gomski:

These are predominantly gas fired, correct?

Brad Carl:

Gas fired, propane fired, you’re going to see boilers on the market that use other alternative fuels as well.

Brian Gomski:

Okay, so what are the … You hear a lot about fire tube boilers, water tube boilers. Can you explain the different between those two?

Brad Carl:

Yeah, it’s pretty easy. You have water tube, and fire tube. Water tube signifies that there’s water in the tube, and fire tube signifies that there’s fire in the tube. Now there’s a considerable difference when we’re talking about these. If we look at the volume of water within a water tube or a fire tube, let’s just call it a two million BTU boiler. If I have a two million BTU boiler in both fire tube and water tube, I might have 15 gallons of water in that water tube, but I’ll have 115 gallons in a fire tube.

Brian Gomski:

What are the different reasons or applications you’d choose one over the other?

Brad Carl:

Yeah, so as you can tell, 15 gallons is significantly different than 115, so these boilers are going to require a different piping schematic, or different piping strategy. We have primary, secondary. We have primary variable. Water tube is, with 15 gallons, requires a restricted flow, so we want to maintain a safe Delta T, so we require a pump to be dedicated for that boiler. That pump is going to be designed for what Delta T we’re trying to maintain, so given the model size, it could be anywhere from 20 degree Delta T, to a 40 degree Delta T, but that pump is going to be a constant pump.

Brad Carl:

In regards to the 115 gallon fire tube, it gives us the ability to get a better Delta T. We can, in a lot of cases, we can do anywhere from 20 to 80 degree Delta T. It makes it ideal for that variable primary type system, where we can deliver the BTUs that we need without having to run a constant pump. Your system pump is going to be just fine for driving that water through the boiler, and we’re going to be able to maintain the loop temp or whatever temperature you’re trying to achieve in that system.

Brian Gomski:

Got you.

Jeff Henderson:

To chime in real quick, with water tube boilers, you have a very small mass of water that’s in your heat exchanger. You have very small tubes, and if you don’t have enough flow through those tubes, you will steam off, or flash off that water.

Brad Carl:

Right.

Jeff Henderson:

And you will damage or crack a heat exchanger.

Brad Carl:

Right.

Jeff Henderson:

Which is why they require a pump to ensure that you have that flow to the heat exchanger.

Brad Carl:

In fact, I guess a tip when you’re looking at, especially if you’re doing in the replacement business, and you see pin hole leaks in copper, a lot of times it was maybe ran on a too low of a pressure, and what happened is it forms a thin layer of steam across that tube, and that’s what causes, a lot of times, pin hole leaks. It could also cause, from too fast a flow. If you’re running too high of a flow, you’re not going to get as much Delta T. We’re not pulling up that heat.

Brad Carl:

Keep in mind, we got a flame that’s 1500 degrees, and if we only have 15 gallons, that flow needs to be pretty precise to be able to maintain that safe Delta T.

Brian Gomski:

Jeff, are we seeing, is it application specific, or are we predominantly seeing one version over the other mostly?

Jeff Henderson:

It is application specific. Retro-fits tend to be primary, secondary, because the older boilers had to be piped that way, older water tube boilers. The newer boilers, when you’re designing fire tube, we tend to see a lot more often as variable primary.

Brad Carl:

That’s, I think, a good thing to keep in mind. We walk into an old building, and we’ve got rebates. Everyone wants to get a rebate on their boiler, but the question is, is that system designed for a condensing application? I walk into buildings all the time, and if you’re pulling out a boiler that was designed for a 161 80 type application, there’s a good chance that every piece of equipment out in that field is also designed for a 160, 180 application. You could put a condensing boiler in, and you can creep up the water temperature to try to see if there’s saving there, but maybe the best route is to replace it with an 85, or if it’s possible and there’s not a long stack run, put an 88% in. See if the payback is available, and use that money to save in another spot.

Brad Carl:

In a new construction, I absolutely would design around the energy savings that we can, but that’s not always the wisest decision on a retro-fit.

Brian Gomski:

You guys mentioned condensing, tell me what that means. What are the options when it comes to condensing boilers?

Brad Carl:

Yeah, there’s a wide plethora of condensing options, from the smallest amount of BTUs, all the way up to six million, and we have it in both water tube and fire tube. In regards to condensing, let’s start with the basics of what condensing is.

Brian Gomski:

Yep.

Brad Carl:

Then we could talk about the nuances of the condensing boiler, and where those can fit into whatever application that you’re trying to meet. How we make a condensing boiler condense, it’s not … If you’re looking at a pamphlet, and it could be our pamphlet, or anyone’s pamphlet, and you see 99% efficient, I don’t know if I want to be in the building that’s 99% efficient on their boiler, because it’s going to require extremely, extremely cold water temperatures at part load. We’re not even at full load to get to 99%, so we’re talking 40, 50 degrees. I haven’t been in a building that has a 50 degree return that’s comfortable, and nor do I want to be.

Brad Carl:

We’re looking at a practical application, on a condensing boiler, we’re looking at 92%. 92, 93%, you’ll probably get more in the summer, but in a real winter load, if we’re running 100, 110 degrees, 92% is pretty decent. How do we achieve and maximize the amount of condensing? Well, I guess if we’re going to … Let’s look at this from what a boiler is. We’re heating water, and so we’ve got, when we burn fuel, and I’ll bring it to … Let’s call it stoic, metric combustion. It’s perfect combustion, and it’s achievable in a lab condition. We’re not going to see that out in the field, but the important principals of stoic, metric combustion is that you get three things. You get CO2, you get heat, and you get water vapor. Those are the three main components of stoic, metric combustion.

Brad Carl:

Now the heat’s going to go into our boiler, and that boiler’s going to warm up, and we’re going to be able to get 88% efficiency. Out the stack is going to be the CO2 and the water vapor.

Brian Gomski:

Okay.

Brad Carl:

That water vapor carries both sensible and latent heat. That latent heat has 970 BTUs per pound of steam that we create in latent heat. What we’re doing is, we’re pulling off that latent heat from the combustion process, and that’s where we’re able to achieve a greater efficiency. Now that efficiency is going to be 100% based on dewpoint. Dewpoint can change due to external criteria, but for this discussion, 135 degrees is dewpoint, so what that dewpoint means is I have to have below 135 degree water temperature to even condense, so if I want to be at 92% at a base out of 135 degree dewpoint, I’m going to have to bring back probably 110, 115 degree water. The cooler the water we can bring back, the better efficiency is.

Brad Carl:

That’s why in a water source heat pump application, a condensing boiler is a no brainer.

Brian Gomski:

Sure. Jeff, you have anything to add to that?

Jeff Henderson:

No, just that water source heat pump applications is good comment, because we do a lot of those. We consistently use condensing boilers. You see those savings when you use the condensing boilers in that application, but retro-fit applications, where they have an old boiler with coils that are requiring 180 degrees, it just doesn’t make any sense.

Brad Carl:

Right.

Brian Gomski:

Another thing we see a lot, in terms of talking about Boilers 101, are the different types of system loops. We hear primary, secondary. We hear variable primary. Can we go over what those two are?

Brad Carl:

Absolutely.

Brian Gomski:

And when to use those applications.

Brad Carl:

Absolutely, so primary, secondary, I think is going to be the most common system that you’re going to come across.

Brian Gomski:

Okay.

Brad Carl:

In a building that is being retro-fitted.

Brian Gomski:

Walk me through, when you see a diagram of a primary, secondary, what does that look like?

Brad Carl:

You have two separate loops. You have a primary loop, and you have a secondary loop. There’s people in the industry that will call the primary loop, the building side. I’m a boiler person. It’s always going to be primary loop is boiler. For this conversation, boiler primary. You have your secondary loop, which is going to be your load loop, where it’s going to have the system pumps that are going to be on that load loop. On the primary side, each boiler that you have is going to have its own dedicated pump, so if you have three boilers, you’re going to have three pumps. Each pump is going to have its own dedicated pump.

Brad Carl:

What that is allowing us to do is make sure that we have the flow that’s required for that boiler. That’s why if we do any type of water tube, we want to see that in a primary, secondary application, because we can design, choose a pump, based off of what our manufacturing, engineering has tested, and has certified, and that pump is going to be able to maintain that safe Delta T that we need across that heat exchanger. If we put a water tube into a variable primary, once again to bring it back to the beginning of our conversation, if I have a 1500 degree flame, I don’t have that much of a lenience in my flow rate. Putting a boiler into a primary, secondary is going to ensure that proper flow that we need.

Brian Gomski:

Okay. What is a variable, primary system?

Brad Carl:

Variable, primary is going to be … Let’s talk about the primary, secondary first. You had the primary, so the primary had its own dedicated pump, and then you had your secondary loop that had the system pumps, and those could be, or could not be, depending on how old your boiler system is, on a VFD. On a variable primary, we’re eliminating that primary loop from that primary, secondary equation, so each boiler is not going to get its own dedicated pump. We’re now putting the pumps on the system, on a VFD, and we’re going to put isolation valves on the back of each boiler, and we’re going to, as the rate or the flow increases or the need, the load conditions change, we’re going to increase or decrease that flow, and that is where the variable primary comes in. Each boiler is going to have an isolation valve on the back of it, and as we need more capacity, we’ll open up that isolation valve, and we’ll put fire in the boiler, and all the flow is going to be driven by that primary pump, the system pump that was on that secondary loop, on a primary, secondary system.

Brian Gomski:

Okay. Now tell me … Okay, between these two loops, tell me the benefits, positives and negatives of both.

Brad Carl:

Yeah, the primary, secondaries are tried true. I think it’s the only option when it comes to any type of water tube boiler, right?

Brian Gomski:

Mm-hmm (affirmative)

Brad Carl:

You do have a little bit more of a maintenance concern with the extra pump on each boiler.

Brian Gomski:

Okay.

Brad Carl:

But pumps are pretty reliable, and if you’re designing a system at an N+1, if you have that ability, if a pump goes down you still have full capacity available, right?

Brian Gomski:

Sure.

Brad Carl:

In a variable, primary, we’re eliminating that electrical draw. We’re eliminating that maintenance item on those primary pumps. We’re also being able to drive, and theoretically put only the heat that’s needed to maintain that building.

Brian Gomski:

Sure.

Brad Carl:

You’re going to be driving that flow based off of what that system needs, and then our boilers respond accordingly to what the flow, or what the requirements are for that building. The efficiencies, you can’t get much more efficient when it comes to a boiler system with that variable, primary.

Brian Gomski:

Jeff, what are you seeing in terms of loop design and choices on that front?

Jeff Henderson:

Over the last five to 10 years, it really has switched from primary, secondary to variable, primary, with the advancements in fire tube boilers. 10 years ago, 15 years ago, you were looking at 10 to 1 turn downs on most boilers, and nowadays you’re at 20, 25 turn down on fire tubes.

Brian Gomski:

What does turn down mean?

Jeff Henderson:

Sorry, turn down is how …

Brian Gomski:

This is the 101 class, Jeff.

Jeff Henderson:

Yeah, sorry. Turn down is how low can your boiler fire, so if you have a 10 to 1 turn down, your boiler can modulate down to 10% fire rate.

Brian Gomski:

Okay.

Jeff Henderson:

With those kinds of turn downs, if it’s a spring day, and you will only really need one classroom or one corner of an office that needs heat, you can turn down your boiler to where it’s barely firing, and only using the energy that it needs to use to heat that one classroom.

Brian Gomski:

It’s literally turning it down.

Jeff Henderson:

Literally turning it down, yeah.

Brian Gomski:

Got you.

Jeff Henderson:

Yep, so with advancements on the high turn down, we’re able to realize the pumping savings by going to variable, primary.

Brian Gomski:

Got you, okay.

Jeff Henderson:

To answer your question, we are seeing, on brand new construction, it definitely is geared more towards variable primary these days.

Brian Gomski:

Is there a lot more controls requirements on the variable, primary for that, or how does that work?

Jeff Henderson:

Well, I’ll hop in first, and then let Brad expound on this. There is, with primary, secondary usually your boiler will turn on, turn off. They’re dedicated serve pumps. They turn on, turn off, and the boiler controls them, and then you got your main secondary load pumps that are controlled separately, and going through the whole system. It’s pretty simplified. With variable, primary, instead of pumps, each boiler is opening and closing its dedicated, motorized control valve to allow flow through the boiler, or not allow flow through the boiler.

Jeff Henderson:

You will also need a bypass out in your system, at your load, so that you can maintain flow through your system should there be a scenario where all of your users are satisfied, meaning the building is warm enough, and every area, and all of their individual valves are shut, you still need flow through your system, so you need a bypass out there with a control sequence for that bypass to open in that scenario.

Jeff Henderson:

You also need to make sure that you maintain flow through your boilers, which may require a control sequence to have one boiler remain open, even if it’s not firing, or the installation of a bypass at your boilers as well, so that you have a path for water on both ends of your system. Those things do make it a little more complicated than a primary, secondary system, but those are things that can be overcome.

Brad Carl:

As long as you’re maintaining your minimum flows, it works out pretty well. Really, just look at your manual, and look at your equipment, and figure out where your minimum flows are for not only the boilers, but the other equipment in the field, and you’ll be fine.

Brian Gomski:

Okay. I don’t want to get too … Brad, we want to have you back for more episodes. I don’t want to get too deep into the weeds, but is there anything else from the … Before we talk about Camus specifically, from a 101 perspective, is there anything else we would want to cover about boilers?

Brad Carl:

We could do it for another podcast. I’d be okay with that, but there’s a lot of ground that we can cover. Between non-condensing, near condensing, condensing, stack requirements for these boilers, what type of boiler. There’s hundreds of boilers and every boiler had its own requirement in terms of piping.

Brian Gomski:

How about sealed … One thing we also hear a lot is the sealed combustion. Tell me about that. What is that versus non-sealed combustion?

Brad Carl:

Right, so sealed combustion is just directly ducting your outside air directed to the burner.

Brian Gomski:

Okay.

Brad Carl:

The burner needs oxygen to be able to combust efficiently. We’re bringing a direct line from outside air to the inlet of that air, inlet air of that burner, to provide the optimal amount of oxygen for combustion. The other options are for leuvers in walls, or you can do a pressurized plenum as well, with our boiler.

Brad Carl:

My preference is sealed combustion, personally, because I know that air is going to be, is going to get to where it needs to get. You can always do a high, low leuver in a building, and if that’s what is existing, that certainly will work. I just find that it’s cold in the middle of winter, and someone comes and shuts a leuver because they want to try to warm up that space, and now we’re starving that boiler for oxygen.

Brian Gomski:

Is there any reason to not always, by default, do sealed combustion?

Brad Carl:

Well certainly, if you don’t have ability to get clean air, right?

Brian Gomski:

Ah, okay.

Brad Carl:

If you don’t have good quality air, or if you’re worried about the circumstances of where you can bring that duct, or that pipe, or wherever you’re bringing that air back, you can use leuvers, or you can use the plenum, but there’s always applications where sealed combustion isn’t going to be the best solution.

Brian Gomski:

Got you, okay. The other thing, just to circle back, what is near … You said we talk about condensing, what are we talking about when we’re talking about near condensing?

Brad Carl:

Yeah, okay. Well near condensing is one of those …

Brian Gomski:

It’s like close, but not quite.

Brad Carl:

Yeah, it’s almost an oxymoron in some ways. Condensing, I guess the best way I can explain a near condensing is it’s a boiler that we’re talking it to the absolutely maximum amount of efficiency we can get in a boiler without condensing. However, because we’re taking to the brink of condensing when it’s in the boiler, it will, and can and will condense in the stack.

Brad Carl:

The requirements for a near condensing boiler is going to be a CAT4, meaning UL1738 listed stack, so most commonly people listening probably would refer to AL294C as a material that’s acceptable for venting. Because we’re running at an 88%, our stack temperatures are going to be higher. In comparison, in a condensing boiler we might be able to use PVC, CPVC, polypropylene. Because we’re running at a higher stack temp at 88%, the only safe venting material for that application would be the UL1738 stainless stack.

Brian Gomski:

Got you, and I’m going just a little passed 101, but I’ve heard of instances where boiler flues, it’s the wrong material, or people are just like, “Ah, it’s fine, whatever.” What are the dangers of not using the correct flue material?

Brad Carl:

Honestly, this should be 101. If it isn’t 101 …

Brian Gomski:

Yeah.

Brad Carl:

Flue is … When it comes to problems with the boiler, or making an unsafe installation, flues …

Brian Gomski:

Or incorrectly sized flue too.

Brad Carl:

Absolutely, and you’re going to have problems with combustion. You’re going to have unreliable boiler if you do not have flue. Flue in itself should be its own podcast. Certainly, I think we’re not a flue manufacturer, but I’m sure you guys could get someone on here to discuss that, right?

Brian Gomski:

Mm-hmm (affirmative)

Brad Carl:

If not, I can probably find someone. Flue, especially in my background, it was so important. It could make or break your job.

Brian Gomski:

Sure.

Brad Carl:

It could make or break your experience for the end user. It can make or break the project for salesman, right?

Brian Gomski:

Sure.

Brad Carl:

I’ve, thank goodness, not witnessed this, but in the industry, and talking with people, literally the wrong application, putting in PVC in a design system for 180, 200 degrees, literally the PVC is melting. It falls on people’s skin.

Brian Gomski:

Oh my gosh.

Brad Carl:

It’s really important to pick the right material for the application. Keep in mind, and when we’re designing a system, PVC for every 100 feet, has four inches of flex and a stainless product has one inch. Over time, if you’re running a temperature that exceeds the limit of that PVC, it’s going to degrade that product. If we’re getting four inches of flex, there’s a significant chance that could crack, and then you’re circulating flue gases within the building. That is what, the nightmare scenario, right?

Brian Gomski:

Right, for sure.

Brad Carl:

That’s why venting is so important, especially when I’m designing, especially when I was working as a contractor. I never put anything in besides stainless venting, because the cost saving to me was not worth the potential risk of someone’s livelihood.

Brian Gomski:

Sure.

Brad Carl:

Or whatever, and when you get into the larger sizes, single wall, if I can run up an existing chimney, I can run single wall vent. The cost of material might be different, but let me tell you, if you’ve ever worked with 8, 10 inch PVC, that stuff is heavy.

Brian Gomski:

Sure.

Brad Carl:

If you’re running that up two, three stories, and you’re having to figure out a way to brace that into an existing, new existing stack, I found it much easier to run single wall, L29. I could have two guys help running that, and they’re not busting their butt, braking their back to do it.

Brian Gomski:

Sure.

Brad Carl:

It just made sense for me, not only on a project management side, but a safety side.

Brian Gomski:

Sure. I think that’s a great basis for boilers. Now let’s shift gears to talk about Camus boilers specifically.

Brad Carl:

Sure.

Brian Gomski:

Just give the audience a little bit of an overview of who Camus is, and what you guys offer.

Brad Carl:

Yeah, well as I’d like to quote a former, I shouldn’t say former, a sales person, we’re the choose your own adventure of boilers.

Brian Gomski:

Okay.

Brad Carl:

We have everything under the sun, from 60,000 BTUs up to six million, and much larger than that in the future.

Brian Gomski:

Okay.

Brad Carl:

From water tube to fire tube, condensing we have products in copper, cooper nickel and stainless. We have common products like for example, our non-condensing boiler. You can get that in copper, cooper nickel, and stainless steel. Now we’re not the only ones on the market that offers the traditional, modular, vertical boiler in a stainless steel. It gives you that added layer of protection in a non-condensing system, so that you’re going to be able to … If for some reason parameters had changed, and we’re in a condensing mode, you’re not going to rot our your boiler.

Brian Gomski:

Okay.

Brad Carl:

That protection is very comparable to what the upgrade for a cooper nickel system would be.

Brian Gomski:

Okay.

Brad Carl:

On top of that, you get a full, 10 year warranty on the stainless products, so it’s a significant advantage from us. We have a 25 to 1 turn down on our fire tube boilers. As you guys were talking about in the past, or just a little bit earlier, about turn down in the marketplace, having that higher turn down has eliminated the need for a summer boiler, because we can get down to, with a 25 to 1 turn down, we can get down to pretty much lower than what that system’s going to require.

Brian Gomski:

Sure.

Brad Carl:

Theoretically speaking, if we put a couple of these boilers into any application, we’re going to be able to meet whatever the turn down needs for that system is. We’re able to maintain a 25 to 1 turn down. We’re able to maintain our combustion efficiencies by maintaining a 1 to 1 air/gas ratio. You’re not giving up efficiency to run at a lower firing rate, which is traditionally speaking in the industry, has always been, in Scotch Marine Boilers has always been the case, where you gave up a little bit of efficiency to have that higher turn down.

Brian Gomski:

Brad, what is the direction and the vision for Camus moving forward from here?

Brad Carl:

Yeah, we’ve got some big things planned. We’re working on numerous projects that are going to be, new things that we’re going to be introducing in the market, which at this point, we’ll share them at a later date, maybe we can do some lunch learns.

Brian Gomski:

Sure.

Brad Carl:

With your guys, but not only that, we’ve been diversifying our market, not just playing in the commercial market, but we’ve also entered quite a bit in the light, industrial or even the industrial market with providing process water, heating for process water needs.

Brian Gomski:

Okay.

Brad Carl:

All across the country, whether it be wineries, meat packing plants, processing plants, paint booths.

Brian Gomski:

Oh wow. Okay.

Brad Carl:

We’ve done quite a bit of work with the processing side. I don’t know if that’s the direction, but we’re diversifying our portfolio, and we plan to be able to offer, and be the company that can offer a boiler for any application you need.

Brian Gomski:

Oh wow. Brad, I want to thank you and Jeff for being on the show today, and giving worldwide listeners a high level overview of what boilers are, and an introduction to Camus. Brad, if people are interested in Camus, where is the best place to reach out and find you guys?

Brad Carl:

Well we use the wrap system.

Brian Gomski:

Okay.

Brad Carl:

You can go to our website. On there, you can punch in your location, worldwide, and it will tell you who the best contact for the location that you live at. If we don’t have representation, you can reach out direct to Camus and we’ll let you know if we don’t have representation as well.

Brian Gomski:

Then selfishly, I would say if you are planning on designing a system to go into the State of Missouri, or in Missouri, and planning system outside, I would reach out to Midwest Machinery. You can find us at MidwestMachinery.net, and also look up Jeff Henderson on LinkedIn, and Brad Carl, and give them a connect. We post a lot of great content on there too.

Brian Gomski:

All right, well guys, thanks again for being on the show, and to all our listeners, keep engineering for tomorrow today.

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